Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by The Boss » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:59 am

hellboy wrote:
joeypants wrote:But if you're going to continue to kill off the most interesting and fun characters on the show, you have to REPLACE THEM WITH BETTER ALTERNATIVES!
This is one of my main criticisms of the last couple of books. GRRM has killed off so many interesting characters, and for the most part the replacements just aren't as interesting. Personally I think there will be a reasonable drop in interest in the TV shows over the next couple of seasons.
Holy fuck, I'm seriously starting to get that sense.

Wow. I thought it was just me.

Still, it's excellent television.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by joeypants » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:40 pm

It's still very titillating. But it's starting to make me groan and eye-roll where it didn't used to. I'm sure they won't, but if the killed Dinklage this season, I walk.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Kittaan » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:50 pm

joeypants wrote:It's still very titillating. But it's starting to make me groan and eye-roll where it didn't used to. I'm sure they won't, but if the killed Dinklage this season, I walk.
So, I take it from that comment that you haven't read the books? I am not sure how I'd react to the HBO show on it's own, without the books to inform the experience. I imagine it would be less satisfying without the richness of the books for reference. I definitely see what you're getting at, and there have been choices the show's creators/directors/producers have made that I would have preferred they went in a different direction. But overall, IMO (obviously) they have done a brilliant job with bringing the source material to life, and certainly with production values and as mentioned above casting, not to mention the direct involvement of George himself. I am pretty invested in seeing where it goes, and quite apprehensive about George actually completing his story before he croaks. The fat, mostly useless bastard that he is.

PS - Read the fucking books.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by joeypants » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:45 pm

I have not read the books. Tried once, can't do it. Can't stand his prose. Also: time investment.

But, as the continued deviations from the source material show (and just as a general rule), I shouldn't have to have read them. The show should stand on its own. And I think it does. From everything I know from talking with others, all of the issues I have are present in the books as well.

If the only thing this entire enterprise is going to continue to amount to is essentially, "GOTCHA! GOOD GUYS NEVER WIN!" then yeah, I think that's lame and really boring. I'm sticking with it for now because there are still storylines I'm invested in that feature really great actors (Tyrion, Tywin, Aria, The Hound), but it's getting to be really slim pickings.

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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Kittaan » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:04 pm

joeypants wrote:I shouldn't have to have read them. The show should stand on its own. And I think it does.
Fair enough. As I said, I don't know how I'd feel, having already read the books. I'd say it's very difficult to relay the same depth of character and story available in book form in an hour long weekly TV format.

I know there are plenty of people watching the HBO show that haven't read the books and enjoy the show on some level. There are many fans of the books that can't stand the show.

I've heard the criticism of the books from many people (some on this forum), especially the last two volumes... and many (myself included) don't agree. Much like music, choices are made and that's the author's prerogative. Whether or not you invest your time and energy in consuming it is yours. Captain obvious, I know.

On another topic, have you ever read any Zelazny?
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by UndKeineZwEier » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:29 pm

Kittaan wrote: I am pretty invested in seeing where it goes, and quite apprehensive about George actually completing his story before he croaks. The fat, mostly useless bastard that he is.
Honestly, I have feeling that this is what's going to happen. Especially now that there's talk of an eighth book.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by The Boss » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:47 pm

I'm halfway through.

I can't read this thread if you dudes are going to do spoilers.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by Kittaan » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:51 pm

I refer you to the very first post my friend. This is NOT a spoiler free thread.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Post by The Boss » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:13 pm

Ah, right on.
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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by joeypants » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:47 pm

Never read Zelazny.

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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by Kittaan » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:52 pm

joeypants wrote:Never read Zelazny.
One of the reasons I got turned on to George RR was telling a bookstore owner many years ago ('96-'97?) that I loved Zelazny. Your comment above re: not digging his prose made me think to ask. I would be very curious to hear what you think of Zelazny, who is one of my favorite authors. Since you mentioned you have limited time for reading, maybe you won't get to it, but if you want a recommendation, let me know.

By the way @ Liz - I don't recall hearing back from you on what you thought of Nine Princes in Amber. You likely did, but I don't remember.
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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by M0G » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:52 pm

A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the most overrated works of Epic Fantasy ever written.

The Game of Thrones HBO adaptation is fucking gravy.

As for Secondary World Fantasy you kids need to step up your game. Martin is for beginners. His prose is marginal. Certainly not at the level of a Bakker or Mieville.

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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by liz » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:47 pm

Damn you Kittaan I feel like I'm back in school. It pained me to say it about your favourite book (as I have done previously when you pestered) but after book one I put it away. It is sitting on my book shelf glaring at me and I do intend to pick it up again. I must say that after reading it some time ago some of the imagery of his writing is still in my head so I really should relook.

As for GOT is is still the best thing on TV and the writing is always excellent. The killings don't bother me, it lends the tale realism in my view. Not all the chess pieces were ever going to live happily ever after and I enjoy the character journeys he takes us on.
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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by Kittaan » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:53 pm

Now I remember Liz. I honestly don't care if you didn't like it, but wanted to recommend it because I dug it. No worries. I think it would make an amazing series.
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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by hellboy » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:15 pm

M0G wrote: As for Secondary World Fantasy you kids need to step up your game. Martin is for beginners. His prose is marginal. Certainly not at the level of a Bakker or Mieville.
Lets not talk about fantasy novels as though they are high literature. I've read hundreds, if not thousands of them over the years, and A Song of Ice and Fire is definitely up there with the best.

Is it overrated? Sure, it's hard to argue against that given it's popularity, but it's definitely one of the better series out there.

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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by M0G » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:56 am

hellboy wrote:
M0G wrote: As for Secondary World Fantasy you kids need to step up your game. Martin is for beginners. His prose is marginal. Certainly not at the level of a Bakker or Mieville.
Lets not talk about fantasy novels as though they are high literature. I've read hundreds, if not thousands of them over the years, and A Song of Ice and Fire is definitely up there with the best.

Is it overrated? Sure, it's hard to argue against that given it's popularity, but it's definitely one of the better series out there.
Horseshit. There many, many works of speculative fiction that are absolutely high literature.

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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by hellboy » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:07 am

M0G wrote:
Horseshit. There many, many works of speculative fiction that are absolutely high literature.
And Bakker or Mieville are? Horseshit!

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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by M0G » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:16 am

hellboy wrote:
M0G wrote:
Horseshit. There many, many works of speculative fiction that are absolutely high literature.
And Bakker or Mieville are? Horseshit!
Absolutely. Mieville's The City and The City and Bas Lag books are genius. As for Bakker what he is doing is so complex it makes Borges look elementary.

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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by The Boss » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:26 am

Just did the "fight" episode and I think I am completely done with the series.

SPOILERS

Just ONCE I would like to see the "good guys" win. And fuck Martin, yes, sometimes characters are simply "good".

And rarely, if ever, does he let the good people win or come out on top. Sure, he gives it to the "bad guys" sometimes, which is great - but there seems to be fucking NO balance in his world.

Done with the books, done with the TV series. Just done. It's got to the point where it is simply sadistic for the sake of it, and I don't want to be a part of it anymore.
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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by liz » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:30 am

What a quitter.
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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by hellboy » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:11 am

Crow wrote: And rarely, if ever, does he let the good people win or come out on top. Sure, he gives it to the "bad guys" sometimes, which is great - but there seems to be fucking NO balance in his world.
Sounds just like real life.

It's pretty much story-writing 101 to make the "good guys" hit rock bottom before a reprise isn't it? GoT I don't think is much difference in this regard.
Also, I find it hard to work out who the actual good guys are - the Starks? Blondie in the desert? Neither really started in a good place at all.

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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by M0G » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:14 pm

hellboy wrote:
Crow wrote: And rarely, if ever, does he let the good people win or come out on top. Sure, he gives it to the "bad guys" sometimes, which is great - but there seems to be fucking NO balance in his world.
Sounds just like real life.

It's pretty much story-writing 101 to make the "good guys" hit rock bottom before a reprise isn't it? GoT I don't think is much difference in this regard.
Also, I find it hard to work out who the actual good guys are - the Starks? Blondie in the desert? Neither really started in a good place at all.
Crow wrote:Just did the "fight" episode and I think I am completely done with the series.

SPOILERS

Just ONCE I would like to see the "good guys" win. And fuck Martin, yes, sometimes characters are simply "good".

And rarely, if ever, does he let the good people win or come out on top. Sure, he gives it to the "bad guys" sometimes, which is great - but there seems to be fucking NO balance in his world.

Done with the books, done with the TV series. Just done. It's got to the point where it is simply sadistic for the sake of it, and I don't want to be a part of it anymore.
Jesus if moral ambiguity bothers you don't read Bakker. You having a background in Literature I am surprised you are bothered by it.

@ Hellboi - I am still troubled of your easy dismissal as Fantasy not being capable of being considered High Literature. Have you read Wolfe, Vance, Carroll, Dunsany? I could go on for hours on this. I know you claim to have read THOUSANDS of books in the genre but Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms don't count. There are so many remarkable talented authors in Speculative Fiction fighting for the respect and legitimacy. Authors writing stories as complex and nuanced as any of the "classics". Some University professors are starting to include works of Spec Fiction as course material so things are changing.

You can have Homer and Hemingway. I will take Bakker and Mieville. Having read all of them Bakker and Mieville are pushing boundaries in ways the first two never dreamed of.

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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by The Boss » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:07 pm

"Moral Ambiguity"? "The "good guys" hit rock bottom before a reprise"?

You two are joking, right?

Explain to me the character development in this series. Outside of TWO (admittedly excellent) characters - Jaime and Snow - everyone is as two-dimensional as you can get. And if there IS a hint of moral ambiguity, it's obvious as to how they'll develop.

Let's breakdown:

Cersei - Cunt. Always has been, always will be.
Tywin - Hard, doing it for his family. Always has been, always will be.
Tyrion - Wanting acceptance and peace. Always has been, always will be.
Ned Stark/Any male Stark - Honour-bound, noble. Always has been, always will be.
Samsa - Stupid cunt. Always has been, always will be.
Daenerys - Started out as a victim, now becoming a bitch. Slight exception to the rule.
Paetyr - Selfish, driven by power-lust. Always has been, always will be.
Stannis - Hard, power-lust, petulant. Always has been, always will be.

(Obviously this is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but you get the point.)

Your minor characters go through SLIGHT ambiguity, but for the most part, they're driven by selfishness.

I think the world-building is fairly rich, but the constant sadism is starting to become tiresome. Not to mention the actions of the characters and the scenes: "What's the most fucked up thing that could happen right now, but with a twist? Yep, it happened."

YAWN.

Unless something like ten seasons and over 7,000 pages is leading up to a massive buttfucking of every "bad" character in the series, it's becoming increasingly apparent that this has been written entirely for shock value.

(And don't give me that shit about Joffrey getting what he deserved as a "bad guy". At that point, he couldn't fuck anyone over anymore than he already had. He was going to be a shitty king, sure, but I've yet to see a good one in the series. And had he stayed alive, none of what happened after would have transpired.)
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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by M0G » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:59 pm

Crow wrote:"Moral Ambiguity"? "The "good guys" hit rock bottom before a reprise"?

You two are joking, right?

Explain to me the character development in this series. Outside of TWO (admittedly excellent) characters - Jaime and Snow - everyone is as two-dimensional as you can get. And if there IS a hint of moral ambiguity, it's obvious as to how they'll develop.

Let's breakdown:

Cersei - Cunt. Always has been, always will be.
Tywin - Hard, doing it for his family. Always has been, always will be.
Tyrion - Wanting acceptance and peace. Always has been, always will be.
Ned Stark/Any male Stark - Honour-bound, noble. Always has been, always will be.
Samsa - Stupid cunt. Always has been, always will be.
Daenerys - Started out as a victim, now becoming a bitch. Slight exception to the rule.
Paetyr - Selfish, driven by power-lust. Always has been, always will be.
Stannis - Hard, power-lust, petulant. Always has been, always will be.

(Obviously this is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but you get the point.)

Your minor characters go through SLIGHT ambiguity, but for the most part, they're driven by selfishness.

I think the world-building is fairly rich, but the constant sadism is starting to become tiresome. Not to mention the actions of the characters and the scenes: "What's the most fucked up thing that could happen right now, but with a twist? Yep, it happened."

YAWN.

Unless something like ten seasons and over 7,000 pages is leading up to a massive buttfucking of every "bad" character in the series, it's becoming increasingly apparent that this has been written entirely for shock value.

(And don't give me that shit about Joffrey getting what he deserved as a "bad guy". At that point, he couldn't fuck anyone over anymore than he already had. He was going to be a shitty king, sure, but I've yet to see a good one in the series. And had he stayed alive, none of what happened after would have transpired.)
As usual you framed your argument well and your posts are a pleasure to read.

First let me be clear...I fucking hate Martin. A Song of Ice and Fire is incredibly overrated. Books four and five are terrible.

That said, as much as it pains me to admit it, Hellboy is spot on. Martin writes his characters in a fairly realistic manner. Very rarely does the good guy win. Concepts of good and evil are mostly constructs. Humans are a result of their environment and socialization. What one culture deems evil another views as good. Most everything is some shade of gray.

Martin is essentially writing a secondary world fantasy version of Wars of the Roses. Having studied that time in depth it was dark and cruel and the good guy rarely won. I can, and do, fault Martin for many things, almost all though are related to his writing and plot development issues. His world doesn't need moral balance just continuity and consistency, which he achieves. His world and the story he is telling is ultimately about power and revenge and the lengths at which people are willing to go to get what they want. As I said Martin's world is a cruel one but accurate considering he used 15th century England as the foundation on which he built his story.

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Re: Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

Post by The Boss » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:41 pm

Fair enough. I don't completely agree with you and Hellboy, but I can see what you're saying.

That said, you're surrounded by "good guys" in the real world all the time. And sometimes "bad guys". While I will absolutely agree that we are all the sum of our environment and experiences, I've yet to see the utter sadism in characters that is reflected in Martin's work. And moral ambiguity really doesn't play that large a role in the real world.

I'm going to finish "THE BOYS" and finally get around to reading Feist's "MAGICIAN". I refuse to waste anymore time on George's clumsy writing, when there's a world of top-notch fantasy to get back into. Which, incidentally, is much better written.

I feel like a 15 year old kid again, reading fantasy.
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