Porcupine Tree / Steven Wilson - All Things Related Thread

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Post by MOG »

eyepod said
+1 on the intelligent exchange going on here.

I hoped to be on here ranting about the Raven by now,but the US postal service solved my dilemma of having too much SW material to digest at one time...They "miss directed"( Lost) my package.Oh well,got Fear of a Blank planet on the way and have barely gotten to know GFD and The Incident so far.


Oh shit dude that sucks!  Why not head over to amazon and buy it digitally?



 

 
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Post by eyepod »

mogeffingmog said

eyepod said
+1 on the intelligent exchange going on here.

I hoped to be on here ranting about the Raven by now,but the US postal service solved my dilemma of having too much SW material to digest at one time...They "miss directed"( Lost) my package.Oh well,got Fear of a Blank planet on the way and have barely gotten to know GFD and The Incident so far.


Oh shit dude that sucks!  Why not head over to amazon and buy it digitally?



 

 


Unfortunately I am not set up for digital.I am old school,Cds,vinyl,and vacuum tubes.

 
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Post by eyepod »

The Raven has finally arrived.

As a joke,I considered reporting that I thought it was complete shit and chastise ya'll for even listening to such rubbish,just so I could be a pompous music critic for a minute..I would have delivered the punchline before I got lynched.

This thing is going to get some regular play I am sure,after just a few listens a few things already stand out,such as the phenomenal drum and bass work in the opening tune(and the entire album).I am not a drummer but I love it when a great drummer gets moved up in the mix,and I really dig the fusion vibe(trying to avoid assigning a restrictive genre here though).

Also the diversity of instruments and effects is impressive,and this is no easy feat to pull off without sounding completely disjointed.I mean..damn..pianos,flutes,saxophone,clarinet,electric and acoustic guitars,bass,drums,vocal harmonies,Chapman stick,the vintage keys,and much more

Recording quality is also top notch,which I think is crucial with this diverse of music,Without the true tonality of all those individual instruments shining through,it would be mud..Picture this album if it were a victim of the loudness wars...That's just sick..sorry I even mentioned it.

Negatives?Too soon to tell.Will all these diverse techniques gel as an album and hold up over time?Some of you can probably shed more light on that.

Anyway,cool album,I think I am gonna really grow to love it.Thanks for the recommendation.

Slight chance Fear of a blank planet  will arrive tomorrow.SW overload.

 
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Post by edin »


eyepod said
The Raven has finally arrived.

As a joke,I considered reporting that I thought it was complete shit and chastise ya'll for even listening to such rubbish,just so I could be a pompous music critic for a minute..I would have delivered the punchline before I got lynched.

This thing is going to get some regular play I am sure,after just a few listens a few things already stand out,such as the phenomenal drum and bass work in the opening tune(and the entire album).I am not a drummer but I love it when a great drummer gets moved up in the mix,and I really dig the fusion vibe(trying to avoid assigning a restrictive genre here though).

Also the diversity of instruments and effects is impressive,and this is no easy feat to pull off without sounding completely disjointed.I mean..damn..pianos,flutes,saxophone,clarinet,electric and acoustic guitars,bass,drums,vocal harmonies,Chapman stick,the vintage keys,and much more

Recording quality is also top notch,which I think is crucial with this diverse of music,Without the true tonality of all those individual instruments shining through,it would be mud..Picture this album if it were a victim of the loudness wars...That's just sick..sorry I even mentioned it.

Negatives?Too soon to tell.Will all these diverse techniques gel as an album and hold up over time?Some of you can probably shed more light on that.

Anyway,cool album,I think I am gonna really grow to love it.Thanks for the recommendation.

Slight chance Fear of a blank planet  will arrive tomorrow.SW overload.

 


Glad your are getting a listen, also in regards to the use of such a wide variety of instruments, that's Steven for you. Not only in the Raven but I think Grace For Drowning has more including Celestas, Hammered Delcimer, Harmonium and Glockenspiel... I really can't get over how much he loves glockenspiels but yeah I love the instrument variety. I wish I had all those in my music room. It's great to see how far Tool can take innovations and idea with just a bass, guitar, and drums but its just an interesting figure how my other favorite musician/band utilizes so much more. Not comparing just saying. Glad you are enjoying the Raven.
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Post by edin »

mogeffingmog said

edin said
Disagree. Insurgentes was an act of genuis and it shows in the songs. I love the intertwined Mexican-culture influence in it. Harmony Korine, Abandoner, Salvaging, Poison for the Fairies, No Twilight, Get All You Deserve, and Insurgentes are all 10/10 songs. I love them. I have both of the deluxe book releases. Those pictures of him in the church with the piano are great. I only leave out Only Child, Significant Other and Twilight Coda because they don't stand out like the others do but those are great too. I can't think of any other album that was recorded internationally with just a love for traveling around and making music. Not actually making a record but making music because you love it. That's what he did with Insurgentes. Galvin's drumming is also outstanding on this album. I love how many genres are included in it. There's also plenty of left over songs from that period that are great too like The 78, Western Home, Puncture Wound and Port Rubicon. I think he was overflowing with ideas. Well, Wilson probably always is. Insurgentes is amazing. I can't really compare The Raven to either Grace For Drowning or Insurgentes. I consider the Raven a band-effort. They all are amazing albums though. I listen to the all of the Raven at least once a day.


First of all, your response was a pleasure to read.  It is kind of rare around here to get a response where someone expresses a dissenting opinion without restoring to ad hominem nonsense. Your post was very concise and thoughtful.

I should probably clarify myself a bit.  I don't think Insurgentes is a bad album by any stretch.  I have a hard time imagining Steven Wilson putting out anything of poor quality.  I just think, in comparison to Grace and Raven, Insurgentes feels a bit disjointed. 

It does cover a lot of ground musically, which is always the case with Steven, but Insurgentes lacks a bit of cohesion.  The songs don't really flow well together.  In other words, if feels like several of the songs almost belong on different albums.  When I think of Grace and Raven, I don't just think of one song.  You couldn't remove one of the songs without impacting the albums dramatically.  Insurgentes doesn't feel that way at all.  It is entirely possible that was by design, and again, Steven certainly didn't fail to deliver.  Quite a bit of good music on the album, but a few weakish songs, and as I said, a few that don't fit well together.  All in all though, still a very solid album.

 


Of course and I meant my post in an all-respectful manner. I also never figured in how maybe the order of listening to the albums may have effected your opinion. I see what you're saying about the songs not fitting so well together. I think Steven really wanted to experiment with the ideas he became attached to growing up in the 80s listening to his favorite bands arouns that time and also thw ideas he may have not been abke to incorporate with Porcupine Tree, IEM, Blackfield or No-Man. Therefore the songs arw pretty sporadic. Abandoner really sounds Radiohead. I love it. Salvaging gives me Scott Walker vibes. But I don't think any of them were sleepers for me when I first heard them and still aren't and I had actually heard and digested both Insurgentes and Grace For Drowning at the same time. Even the songs he left out are badass. I also really like the fact you appreciate the Raven that much. Some people aren't at this point. Grace For Drowning and Lateralus are my two favorite albums of all time and I agree, if one toe were missing, they wouldn't walk. 

 
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Post by Kittaan »

Loving this conversation.  Glad you got it Eyepod.  Great points Mog and Edin.

 

I have to give a shout out to one of my favorite guitar parts ever in Drive Home.  For the impatient, it starts at about 5:09 and goes for nearly 2.5 glorious, lyrical, powerful emotional minutes... so brilliant.  Love how it is both intensely feel AND technical simultaneously.  Again, go see this show if you can.  Guthrie Govan will blow you away.

 


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Post by eyepod »

Essentially we are all entering the art gallery from different entrances.The pieces I see first affect how I judged the others,and ditto for everyone else.

@Kittaan-That guitar solo is phenomenal,just oozing with tone and emotion,I love guitar work like that as opposed to showing off how many notes per minute you can pump out.I actually had some comments about the guitar work in my "review",but deleted it because it was rather long winded and a bit off topic.Since you mentioned it,I guess I will sum it up here.

I was a guitarist in a past life and have become an admirer of great guitar tone.Edin mentions how Tool makes such innovative music with basically guitar bass,drums,vocals as a core.IMO a major part of this is these guys taking their skills to the highest level,adapting their instruments and tone to complement one another.Using the guitar as an example:The electric guitar is doing double duty.It's a guitar and it's also a control device for that harmonic generating beast,the tube amp.In skilled hands this combo has virtually unlimited expression and really contributes to pulling everything together.

 
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Post by edin »

Kittaan, I completelt agree about that solo. I noticed how amazing it was the first time I heard it. Curious, how do you know it is Guthrie that's playing it? 

 

I thought I'd list my favorite Porcupine Tree songs. I had to narrow it down to 20. 

 

 1. Stars Die

 2. Russia On Ice

 3. Buying New Soul

 4. Heart Attack in a Layby

 5. Fadeaway

 6. A Smart Kid

 7. Lazarus

 8. Piano Lessons

 9. Trains

10. Shesmovedon

11. Sentimental

12. Arriving Somewhere But Not Here

13. Nine Cats

14. Sever

15. Futile

16. Blackest Eyes

17. Deadwing

18. Cure For Optimism

19. Up The Downstair

20. Hatesong
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Post by eyepod »

Thanks for the list edin.I will have to check some of those out.I am really enjoying this PT/SW discovery.Fear of a Blank Planet has some real gems in it,and is a bit more of a rocker than The Incident which suits my moods at times.Anesthetize is excellent and As a long time Rush fan,Alex Lifeson showing up here was a nice suprise.
So far,Fear of a Blank Planet hasn't got ahold of me like The Incident,or GFD.Probably Just because I have had a lot more time with the later two.
This week's delivery(hopefully):The Sky moves Sideways and Insurgentes.The SW pipeline continues to flow.
Kind of ironic really..I came to Fourtheye impatiently looking for info on Tool's next album,and now I find myself buried with good music thanks to Fourtheye members.I have become VERY patient for Tool's next release.
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Post by cesaro »

Saw him on the 'Grace for Drowning' tour couple of years ago I think and it was great.  Have seen PT live circa 2010, it was fantastic !

 

Going to the Toronto show next month. Haven't been keeping up with his new solo stuff so I'll just hear it for the first time live.

 

 

 
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Post by edin »

They are setting up signing sessions in record stores. Man I hope there is one in Chicago or Minneapolis.
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Post by petemasterpete »

Official Live Cut of 'The Watchmaker'

 


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Post by ilikecheese »


petemasterpete said
Official Live Cut of 'The Watchmaker'

 

 


yea, I got something your mom can watch, ya bastdid
The above post is entertainment. It is most likely not directed at any individual unless specified. Any other interpretation, gleaning, or reckoning, of this post without the express, written, consent of Cheese, is strictly prohibited.
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Post by edin »

Ravenpig said
What I've heard from PT I've absolutely loved, but I don't think I could ever consider them a "great" band because they remind me WAY too much of other bands (yes I know some of it is on purpose but come on).

A perfect example is "Time Flies". Bad ass, fun song, great to run to. Even if you put aside the obvious Pink Floydness of it (I think I read somewhere that it was a tribute to them, is that true?), they absolutely ripped off Justin's bass line on Lateralus (song), only difference is they mostly play it on the guitar.

Anyone else notice that?


I really must disagree with this statement. After listening to Time Flies many times with this comment in mind, I don't think it is ripping off Justin's bass line at all. I think it's just a very small riff you are letting shadow Justin's bass line in your head as I imagine Tool is one of your favorite's as is mine and there's comparisons floating around a lot. The guitar in Lateralus follows the same progression only palm-muted one-note during the part you are referring too. I sometime's involuntarily do the same thing with other bands. Times where I think, that sounded really Toolish, almost too Toolish. But in this case, while they sound vaquely similar, they aren't parrellel enough to label Steven's a rip-off. Just saying.
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Post by Ravenpig »

Yea no.  It sounds exactly like what Justin plays when May Jay is doing his "Come embrace my desire to...." part.

 

I'm guessing it was done on purpose.  From what I know of PT he/they like to pay tribute to other prog bands.  For all I know he got Tool's permission.  I mean seriously, that song sounds like a mix of Pink Floyd and Tool.

 

Also, to be fair, the start of Lateralus was taken from a Rush song, Test for Echo.  Don't know if it was ever actually confirmed but it is obvious it was.
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Post by MOG »

Music theory is music theory.  There are a fixed number of notes/chords/scales/etc/etc/etc.  Point being, at some point you are going to hear something that sounds similar to something else even when there is no intent.  Steven Wilson, and all the members of Porcupine Tree, are incredibly gifted musicians.  They certainly don't need to rip off Tool or anyone else.  Whatever similarity you hear is obviously accidental and certainly subjective in terms of how close the similarity is.

 

If Tool had a tenth of Steven Wilson's work ethic they wouldn't be in the mess they are currently in with the new album.
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Post by Ravenpig »

Got no quarrel with any of that.

 

To ME it sounds exactly like it.  Is that fair enough?  It honestly doesn't bother me it's just more of an observation.  I now think PT is a very good but not great band because I just don't think his/their stuff is great.  Very good, not great to be simple about it.

 

There are some exceptions though.  Fear of a Blank Planet is fucking tits.
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Post by eyepod »

@petemasterpete

Thanks for the vid.Inspired me to check out some other footage of these guys on youtube as well.Is there other live footage availiable of either SW or PT?Like a full concert DVD?.I don't attend concerts much anymore but might make an exception for these guys at a nice small venue. 
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Post by petemasterpete »

eyepod said
@petemasterpete

Thanks for the vid.Inspired me to check out some other footage of these guys on youtube as well.Is there other live footage availiable of either SW or PT?Like a full concert DVD?.I don't attend concerts much anymore but might make an exception for these guys at a nice small venue. 


several PT DVD's available... 

 

deadwing: Arriving Somewhere...

fear of a blank planet:  Anesthetize

the incident: Octane Twisted

 

all brilliant and very high quality

 

Kittaan and moggers are probably better references for what's officially available in relation to his solo/other projects.
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Post by edin »

eyepod said
@petemasterpete

Thanks for the vid.Inspired me to check out some other footage of these guys on youtube as well.Is there other live footage availiable of either SW or PT?Like a full concert DVD?.I don't attend concerts much anymore but might make an exception for these guys at a nice small venue. 


What Pete just said and also Eyepod, check out Get All You Deserve. It is a live performance from the Grace For Drowning tour last year and if you liked that video, you will be blown away by this performance. It's on DVD, Blu Ray, and CD. Also, not a live DVD but very interesting and inspiring is the Lasse Hoile documentary film Insurgentes which follows Steven's making of Insurgentes and parts of his life and what it is like to be a musician these days.

 

How are you liking Porcupine Tree and Steven? If you want the Cover Versions, let me know.
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Post by Kittaan »

@ RP - Oh yeah, there is definitely linkage between TFE and Lateralus.  Just listen around the 1:00 and 1:49 marks.  It's there for sure.

And I do hear ALL SORTS of similarities/references between Time Flies and other songs.  Much more so Floyd (Dogs, Sheep) than Tool, but I do hear what you're referring to as well.  

But your conclusion is what I disagree with.  

"I don't think I could ever consider them a "great" band because they remind me WAY too much of other bands"

Do you dig the music?  What if Rush and Tool didn't exist, would PT then be a "great" band?  My suggestion is not to get too hung up on these very specific points.  Moggie pointed out a possible scenario, and you may also be on to something, but really, what does it matter?  Whatever the inspiration, they made it their own.

[OK, that was in response to your earlier post... later I see where you say it doesn't really bother you.  Cool... but hey, I typed all that other shit, so you're gonna fucking get it now!   Yeah....]

@ Eyepod - Pete and Edin got you covered.  I would start with Arriving Somewhere... it's amazing, with some great extras too.

 

Here's an example:

 





 

 
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Post by Ravenpig »

I already retracted that comment.

I don't think they're a great band because I don't think they're a great band. Their stuff didn't age well for me, with the exception of Fear of a Blank Planet, which is still awesome.

I'd place PT in the "very good" category, no shame in that.
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Post by Kittaan »

Ravenpig said
I already retracted that comment.

I don't think they're a great band because I don't think they're a great band. Their stuff didn't age well for me, with the exception of Fear of a Blank Planet, which is still awesome.

I'd place PT in the "very good" category, no shame in that.


Agreed.  (And again, I saw your later post, but I had already pontificated on your previous comments and thought you needed the benefit of my wisdom.  8`)

I DO think they are an excellent band, made up of excellent musicians playing intricate and compelling music with sometimes shocking accuracy and feel.  

And we are both entitled to our opinions.  

For ex: I know you are really into NIN and HTDA (some similarities between SW and Trent in terms of how they lead their projects and solo projects) and while I respect what Trent does quite a bit, it doesn't move me like PT or SW.  That's what's important: how does it move you?  Regardless of anyone else's opinion (which is based on how it moves THEM, of course)...

See, it is possible to disagree and still respect each other's opinion.  Yay!  
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Post by MOG »


Kittaan said


Ravenpig said
I already retracted that comment.

I don't think they're a great band because I don't think they're a great band. Their stuff didn't age well for me, with the exception of Fear of a Blank Planet, which is still awesome.

I'd place PT in the "very good" category, no shame in that.


Agreed.  (And again, I saw your later post, but I had already pontificated on your previous comments and thought you needed the benefit of my wisdom.  8`)

I DO think they are an excellent band, made up of excellent musicians playing intricate and compelling music with sometimes shocking accuracy and feel.  

And we are both entitled to our opinions.  

For ex: I know you are really into NIN and HTDA (some similarities between SW and Trent in terms of how they lead their projects and solo projects) and while I respect what Trent does quite a bit, it doesn't move me like PT or SW.  That's what's important: how does it move you?  Regardless of anyone else's opinion (which is based on how it moves THEM, of course)...

See, it is possible to disagree and still respect each other's opinion.  Yay!  


^ Yup.  Both PT and Steven Wilson's live band.  Beyond good.  Exceptional bunch of musicians.

 

NIN - Hit or Miss.  Some really good shit and some really bad shit. 

 

Since RP digs HTDA I will simply say...no thanks
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Post by Ravenpig »

I think HTDA is ok at best.  Their live show looks like its a barrel of monkeys but their studio stuff (with the exception of a couple songs) is just ok to me.

 

But yes, HTDA is obviously levels below PT and NIN.

 

Don't take my "very good" comment to mean that PT/Steven aren't exceptional musicians, because they obviously are.  All I mean is that at first everything I heard from them blew me away....then after a few listens it came down a couple of levels to "just" very good.  I keep bringing it up but Fear of a Blank Planet was the exact opposite, at first it didn't do much for me, but after a couple of listens it was like HOLY SHIT this is awesome and it still is.

 

Wilson's producing on Opeth's Blackwater Park (which from what I understand he was also heavily involved with vocals, guitar work, etc?) is fantastic as well.  That is a killer album.
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